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Tuesday, May 09, 2006


Craig W

He really does carry on doesnt he?

Damian Lataan

Harry/David reckons: “Yes you can keep quoting your 30% re Bush right now but a majority supported the invasion of Iraq as did a majority of Americans on most foreign policy initiatives”. True – until they found out that they were lied to. This is why the less than 30% support now. No one likes being conned. The American people now realise they were conned. Americans have died as a result of the con. (Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of other innocent people that have also died because of the con.)

And for what? Just to control the oil and so the right-wing Zionists can get a free hand to take over as much of Palestine as possible. Even ordinary Israelis are beginning to see through the lies and wake up to the fact that they’ve been conned. Bush’s downfall is imminent and the world can see through the lies of the right-wing Zionists. American built and supplied aircraft and helicopters are killing innocent people in Palestine. The world is beginning to understand what is really going on. The next big con, the ‘Iran wants nuclear weapons’ con, is also falling to bits. All this garbage has nothing to do with ‘nuclear weapons’; it has everything to do with a regime change that that will eliminate the threat to Israel’s long term ambitions in the West Bank and Gaza. The right-wing Zionists have been abusing Jews and Israelis by making them out to be the victims for far too long, but now the world is waking up to their hideous game. No one believes them any more.

Jay White

Will, getting Lataaned is a badge of honour, hold it up with pride. I miss being Lataaned, I guess I am no longer relevent.

As for webdiary when one is on the recieving end of their stick, it is something nobody can understand unless they have been through it. I went through it and tired of it very quickly.

Their policy and ethics are a farce. Only they quote them and only they believe them.

Will Howard

Yeah well, apparently I've been getting "Lataaned" a lot. If the guy takes issue with something I've written on Webdiary, let him have at least the balls to counter me in that forum. Not in his own blog, which I don't read.

I'm really losing patience with this shit.

The "Yad Vashem is on Deir Yassin" furphy was the last straw. No one has come out, done the right thing, and said "yeah, got that wrong." "I stand corrected." No one. "Accountable?" Who's accountable? And for what? Getting the facts straight? It's not a matter of opinion. Whatever your opinions on Palestinians, Israel, whatever, Yad Vashem is not at Deir Yassin. No one's opinion can change that.

But I made the Lataanesque mistake of refusing to engage the "Truth" thread on its own turf. Truth. Like the Ministry of Truth. To use the word "truth" in an essay and immediately open it with a blatant falsehood. Not a good look.

Geoff, it's bad for the heart to hold too much in. I just wanted to let you know I feel better now.

Jay White

Congratulations Geoff Pahoff and Will Howard! You both have offically been Lataaned! http://lataan.blogspot.com/

Roslyn Ross is paid tribute too. I guess she makes the grade for writing really poor propaganda? The kind you might read by a nineteen year old student? Or a fifty something year old student as the case may be?

Gee when I went to school/uni (finished around 22) then I went off to do adult things, the establishment still ruled the way.

Memories...... Take it away Babs!

Jay White

Harry your sum up of how Lataan thinks is correct. Most of the left think along the exact same lines. They are not individual thinkers.

America etc wrong, anyone against them right. Simple logic that crosses all borders. On most issues simplistic, childish and utter nonsense.

These people are mostly malcontents and idiots with a private axe to grind. They have no power, they will not be getting any power any time soon. In fact they are rarely listened to by anyone.

That is why they join parties such as the Greens.

Will Howard

If we're talking about weapons, then we would be remiss not to mention all the Russian weapons, and all the people they killed, in the hands of the Soviets themselves or their clients: Egypt*, Syria, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, North Vietnam, and so on and so on.

A good bit of the time the weaponry was used on these despotic regimes' own people. In 1982 Assad was getting pissed of at the residents of the city of Hama, who were voicing political opposition to his regime just a tad too much for his taste. So the Syrian army surrounded the town, and levelled it with artillery. One report says they followed up with cyanide gas to make sure everyone was dead. Zionist propaganda outlets like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International estimated at least 20,000 people were killed - other reports suggest about 40,000. We'll never know because Assad went in and bulldozed the city. I never, ever, have heard this massacre mentioned by "leftist" anti-imperialists. All done with Russian armaments, by the way.

Then of course we had the Iran-Iraq War, which raged for most the '80s, almost completely fought without US armaments(mainly Russian, French, German, and a bit of Chinese if memory serves), and which killed more people than all the victims on all sides of all the Israeli-Arab wars combined. Funny how the "Left" didn't seem to make much of fuss about this. Is a conflict not interesting unless Jews or Americans are involved, either as victims or aggressors, or both?

*Including chemical weapons which the Egyptians used in the early '60s on Yemenis. Oh, and did I mention they used Russian weapons?

Geoff Pahoff

Vietnam was actually two mistakes.

Getting involved militarily in the first place.

And then not winning.

Damian Lataan

Dylan, all weapons are evil, it’s just that the Americans seem always to be at the forefront of nigh on every evil weapon invented or developed including, of course, the atomic bomb, which has only ever been used twice – both times by America. Flame throwers. Machine guns. Napalm. DU high impact shells. Daisy cutters. Bunker busters. Cruise missiles. Armoured trench bulldozers. The list goes on. These have all been used by American soldiers against peoples in so many other parts of the world.

Stalin killed millions of Russians but very few Americans. Mao killed millions of Chinese but very few Americans. Pol Pot killed well over a million Cambodians but not that many Americans. Saddam killed tens of thousands of Iraqis but not a lot of Americans and so on.

America started off by first killing off its own native peoples on the Eastern seaboard. Then, during its westward transcontinental expansion, it continued to kill off as many of its native and indigenous peoples as it could. It also killed many of the Spaniards that had occupied some of the south-western areas of what is now the US. Of course, I could go on but we were talking specifically of deaths caused by the US since the Second World War.

In Korea Americans killed countless hundreds of thousands of Koreans and Chinese. In Vietnam Americans killed countless millions of Vietnamese peoples. In the American carpet bombings of Laos tens of thousands were killed. In Cambodia too, thousands of Cambodians died from being carpet bombed by the Americans. Americans have killed Haitians, Sudanese, Somalians, untold thousands of Afghanis, tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Iraqis. Americans have provided assistance to Israel who has used that assistance directly to kill Palestinians. Americans have given assistance to a whole string of regimes and dictators in South America who have, in turn, killed countless tens of thousands of their own peoples. The killing capacity of the US since the Second World pales the others you have mentioned, ghastly and despicable as they were, into mere amateurs at the killing game.

Finally, your analogy of cars and weapons is a complete no-brainer. Cars are designed and built to specifically transport people. If people abuse them they will kill. Weapons are designed to specifically kill. People don’t abuse them. They use them for the purpose they were manufactured for – killing people.

The millions killed by the likes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam, Amin, et al, does not justify the millions that have been killed by the Americans since the end of the Second World War.

Harry: It is a false distinction to separate the American people from American foreign policy.

Yes you can keep quoting your 30% re Bush right now but a majority supported the invasion of Iraq as did a majority of Americans on most foreign policy initiatives

You must hold the American people who elect their governments equally responsible and hate the individuals to the same degree. You must do this.

You clearly believer that the influence of the United States since the second World War has been overwhelmingly negative.

Fine. Then that means all of Korea should be communist and run by Dear Leader, not just part of it.

We'd be certainly living in a different world today if the US had not done what it has since World War II.

It would indeed be a world that would meet your objectives but a world that the rest of us would find much, much worse than the world we have today.

After all, the world we have today is FAR better than in former times on virtually every measure. Never before have more people had food to eat and more lived in safety and health than they do today.

Part of it also of course is thanks to Western multinationals. You'd never have the crop yields you have today without western technology.

If the left had had its way all the way.........millions, literally millions more would be living in poverty, disease and war than they do today.

It is simply not good enough for you to point out problems with US foreign policy since World War II without promulgating alternatives.

Vietnam is widely agreed to be a mistake.

But Korea??? Should all of that peninsula be under starvation orders of Dear Leader?

We know that is what you'd like. You're a communist after all. An unreformed 1950's style communist.

What a pity Senator McCarthy is not around these days.

Your bizarre ignorance of the Cold War is startling. You mention Afgahnistan as if it was about that country in isolation. It was about spheres of influence and the end of the world as we know it.

It is why in Switzerland 95% can be housed in engineered fall out shelters.

You seem to forget what the Cold War was about and what the result could have been.

This suits your purposes because throughout the Cold War, which of course was the story of the second half of the 20th century.....you were on the wrong side.

The side you now try to deny and look at the various theatres in isolation.

To view it this way is extraordinarily dishonest on your part.

When will you apologize to the people of Eastern Europe for your role in supporting the Soviet Union during the Cold War? I'd like to know when you and your ilk will do that.

Will Howard

Dylan asks: " can you explain to me the distinction between an 'evil weapon' and its opposite, presumably a 'good weapon'?"

Oooh oooh, I know! I know! Pick me! Pick me!

I can. An "evil" weapon is one used (or held) by the evil imperialist forces of Western hegemonic Zionofascism. A good weapon is one used to kill (er, excuse me - "resist") the running-dog lackeys of the right-wing Israeli Lobby. Like, you know, Israeli kids on the way to school in such Zionist-occupied Palestinian cities as Tel Aviv and Haifa, or office workers on the the way to work in New York or London. Or maybe schoolchildren in the Zionist-occupied town of Beslan. That kind of thing.

The running-dog Zionofascist lackeys of tomorrow. (Sounds like a great new club for high school! Plotting world domination has got to be more fun than putting on plays and running the A/V equipment!)

Now repeat after me: "Helicopter bad*, explosives vest good."

* Except if the helicopter (Russian or Chinese) is being used by the Sudan government to support the Janjaweed genocide of Muslims in Darfur. Then it's not "bad." It's just "regrettable."

Dylan Kissane

"the mighty US, that symbol seen on just about every evil weapon that has been dropped, hurled or flown that has killed so many millions of people since the end of the Second World War"

If I understand you here Damian (and I think I might because it is making my brain ache - usually a sign I have slipped into LataanLogic) you are making one of two points.

First, you might be claiming that the United States has been directly responsible (via US military intervention) for just about all of the millions of deaths as a result of weaponry since the end of WW2. Of course, this would mean you are forgetting about such people as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam, Amin...well, you know the list. It's basically the list of people who get support from your side of politics because they happen to line up with you in opposition to the democracy and freedom that the West stands for. You might be saying this but you would be dead wrong and perhaps even your brain can't stretch that far.

It is also possible that you are implying that the weapons which have been used to kill the innocent are labelled 'Made in the USA' which, in all probability, many of them would have been. I don't know the actual figures but let's accept your pinpoint estimate ('just about every') as accurate for the moment. If this is what you are saying, why is this the fault of the US? What makes the US responsible for the actions of others using their products? I'd wager that most of the deaths on the road in France are in accidents involving French made vehicles - but is Renault responsible for the drunk who drives into a tree on the outskirts of Paris? Shouldn't there be a modicum of personal responsibility here?

Damian: Is there anything that the US can't be blamed for in your strange philosophy?

By the way, Damian, can you explain to me the distinction between an 'evil weapon' and its opposite, presumably a 'good weapon'?

Harry: In Damian's strange philosophy, the United States is the root of all evil.

Currently its Bush but in times past it would have been other things.

During the Cold War he would have supported unilateral disarmament which of course would have led to a defeat for the West.

He is a supporter of anything that America is against.

It is a very simplistic outlook and many of the left share it. That is how they constantly arrive at bizarre conclusions based on the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy.

So you can be sure if the US identifies a foreign policy problem, Damian and his ilk will always bat for the other side.

He says he loathes and detests everything "the institution of America" represents. He's done that most of his life and he'll go on doing it to his last breath.

Meanwhile this extraordinary country of 300 million people will continue on much as it has in the past.


In this thing about weapons note that he fails to mention his old Cold War buddies, the Soviet Union. Very predictable.

The guy bats for the other side. Who ever is on the other side of America is the team he roots for.


Damian Lataan

Harry/David, you say Bush is almost a total irrelevance. Well, with less than 30% support from Americans he certainly is now if he wasn’t before.

Harry: He is clearly one of the least popular president's in living memory and Iraq is the main factor. After all the economy is good so that is hardly the issue. I've never said Bush is popular and nor do I particularly support him. He has become a joke.

Howard is an interesting contrast to Bush. Howard maintains his popularity. In terms of Iraq, Howard made the Americans happy and it does not harm his popularity in Australia at all. Howard remains popular. Why? Australia's "contribution" costs bugger all and has meant little in terms of dead Australians. The same can not be said of the US sitaution and thus it has harmed Bush.

I have travelled extensively throughout America as you have and, in the main, love the place. The people are great, friendly, extremely hospitable and always obliging to help. I don’t hate America and I don’t hate Americans. But I loathe and detest everything the institution of ‘America’ represents. I detest its self-righteousness and its overbearing holier than thou attitude toward other nations, cultures and political systems. I loathe its leader’s lies and warmongering and, slowly, so too do the American people themselves. The Left do not hate the American people as individuals and they do not hate the physical beauty of the country. It’s the intangible concept of ‘America’ that is despised – the mighty US, that symbol seen on just about every evil weapon that has been dropped, hurled or flown that has killed so many millions of people since the end of the Second World War. And they are still killing them by the tens of thousands every year.

No Harry, it’s not the Left hating Americans; it’s ‘America’ hating everything that doesn’t love them.

Harry: With these words you confirm your hatred of America:

"But I loathe and detest everything the institution of ‘America’ represents. I detest its self-righteousness and its overbearing holier than thou attitude toward other nations, cultures and political systems."

I am not much interested in the friendliness of a waitress in Tulsa, Oklahoma nor your appreciation for the woodlands of Northern Minnesota.

The above proves you hate America before Bush and you will just as surely hate it after Bush. Bush is just the current focus of your hatred. When he leaves office you'll switch to the new guy because as you confirm, you loathe and detest the "institution" of America. It's not Bush at all.

Your commentary has no meaning because you are not able to distinguish good from bad. You simply loathe destest everything that the institution of America represents.

Your damnation could not be more sweeping than that.

It is a patently ludicrous position to adopt and renders discussion meaningless.

I'd grant you that some US foreign policy outcomes have been ambiguous at best but this idea of damning the entire "institution" and filling yourself with loathing toward it is nonsense.

When that is your starting position, there is nothing to discuss.

I'd rather people also address incompetence because rather than grand design or conspiracy, I think some negative outcomes are also rooted in incompetence.

I also think few understand the scale of the US government or the extent of inter-agency rivalries.

These are not excuses for negative outcomes but they do form part of the mix.

Geoff Pahoff


That was almost witty.

Excuse me guys. I'm in a state of shock. I'm taking the rest of the evening off to recover.

Damian Lataan

So Geoff Pahoff, that’s snivelling little sore loser then, is it?

Geoff Pahoff

phil kendall is a phuckwit. I think this turd actually thinks he's witty. I can just picture the dickhead now. And as for Ross.

Boycott Israel. Organise academic boycotts. This will hurt Israel just like boycotting sport with Sth Africa did because Israel "fancies itself" in that field just like Sth Africa did in sport. Sure this is "collective punishment" but that's OK because Israel collectively punishes Palestinians. Besides it will only hurt them in their hip pocket.

Can you believe this stuff? It almost makes Lataan look sane.

And they seriously wonder why I won't engage this stuff on its level? As I predicted phuckwit phil has already jumped in with "what does it matter if Deir Yassin and the Holocaust memorial are not, like Roslyn said, on the same spot. The principle is the same." That is what happens when you tackle these people issue by issue.

Hamish insists that the true issue here is where these places are situated. It is beyond him to understand that the true issue is how this stuff gets believed and published in the first place. If you try tackling that issue you are "abusive and not engaging".

Geoff Pahoff

Hey big boy! I'm a loser?

Mate, it's not me pushing sixty and still hanging around some fourth rate department of some fifth rate university in some backwater state doing a higher "degree" course that actually makes you more ignorant than when you started and which absolutely no-one, not even your fellow lunatics, take seriously, while spending most of the time writing hatemail to blogs where you are appreciated for your amusement value only.

You have tremendous job prospects with that degree. Especially you. You'll be able to get a job in a circus anyday. See the country.

Jay White

"Jay White, instead of paying for me being at uni, you’d probably benefit from a year or two yourself learning history and how to write English – though on second thoughts, I doubt you would".

Now say thankyou Jay, for your hard earned taxes.

Damian Lataan

You are a loser Geoff Pahoff. You continue with this nonsense about the Left being anti-American because of our dislike of Bush’s foreign policy. We are no more anti-American than we are anti-British because of our dislike of Blair’s foreign policy or anti-Australian because of our dislike of Howard’s foreign policy. It’s as much rubbish as you prattling on and on about the Left hating Jews and being anti-Semitic because of our dislike of the right-wing Zionist policy of occupying lands that doesn’t belong to Israel. Israel has no right to be in Palestine. Get used to it you snivelling little loser.

Harry: The idea that the left are not anti-American is utterly laughable. Bush is just a current manifestation of the syndrome. You guys supported uni-lateral disarmament at the height of the Cold War. You've always not only been against American foreign policy but have also been harshly critical of American society and culture. It is a demonstrable nonsense to suggest that the left is only anti-Bush and not anti-American. I have never known a time in my life when the left has not been rabidly and I do mean absolutely rabidly anti-American. Bush is almost a total irrelevance. When he goes the lefts anti-American stance will continue as it has done so all of my life. It is the ultimate deceit of the left to say it is about the current administration not the country or its people. Quite on the contrary, the current administration is merely the current vehicle for the hatred. It is barely relevant.

Damian Lataan

Harry/David, I’ve never quoted Chomsky in my life.

Jay White, instead of paying for me being at uni, you’d probably benefit from a year or two yourself learning history and how to write English – though on second thoughts, I doubt you would.

Jay White

phil kendall "What can we do? People suggest 'people power.' I myself have suggested a 'discretionary spending' boycott".

This guy followed with this after complaining on length about a small group of people attempting to make our life a misery and send us all to the poor house. He compares the majority of people to sheep who are silly enough to vote for these governments.

He now asks them to throw of the shackles of poverty and their terrible down trodden lives. He wants them to do this by not spending on LUXURY items such as SUV's and LCD TV's. Yes the true sign of a life of misery and poverty, how can these sheep be so dumb?

This guy goes to the head of the Bob Wall class of illogical, idiotic debate!

Jay White

Geoff they have never forgiven the US for the falling of the Berlin Wall. I have always believed this came about because of a dud system. These people cannot ever except that FACT. Therefore any friend of the US is a enemy of them.

Notice how THAT woman work vilification of the old Soviet Union into the the debate? Funny also that the very same USSR is never mentioned in the history of the Middle East.

I remember very vividly them being as involved in this area as much if not more then the US.

Geoff Pahoff

As far as I can remember the "left" has been hating and vilifying Israel since the very early seventies. Perhaps about 1971. It was a strange and sudden phenonomen which came out of the blue. You could almost put a date on it it was so sudden. I was reminded of the overnight switch in policy by western communist parties when Hitler invaded Russia. One day they were parotting the "pacificist" no war, this is a Jews' war, don't fight for the capitalists, imperialists etc line, calling (here) Aussie soldiers "six bob a day murderers" and stirring up strikes to paralyse the waterfronts, and the very next day it was "we must fight these fascists to the last man and etc."

Orwell describes the phenomomen in 1984 when there is a sudden reallignment in the perrennial war between the three great powers. Immediately the party workers must produce propaganda praising the former mortal enemy, vilifying the former ally and expunging from the record everything inconsistent. It never happened.

They have been hating and vilifying the US much longer of course. I have little doubt that the overnight change in policy has something to do with a change of policy by the Soviet Union which would mean an immediate switch in policy in the Soviet alligned western communist parties with the rest of that wing of the "left" playing catch up. Trying to out-extreme one another a bit like the Palestinian terror groups do. There is probably no "direction" going on as such. These people didn't need it.

That is my theory at least. The hatred of Israel, and increasingly Jews, is a legacy of the cold war. It is no accident that the spewers of hate over Israel are equally venonmous about the US. In their minds the US and Israel are so intertwined as to be indistinguishable. You see this everyday at WD. Facts don't matter. Israel is a puppet of the US. An "ugly child", as one of them put it the other day. But the US is a puppet of the Jews or the "Zionist Lobby".

We are talking about seriously disgusting people. Deranged with hatred. Deluded to the point of something akin to a mental illness. Not unlike Damian.

Jay White

Geoff, Will I got a little angry reading the threads in the early morning at was going to post something. Then I remembered being expelled. So I will post it here:

Roslyn Ross “Geoff, perhaps people would listen more to you if you presented a substantiated argument“.

What ill thought out ignorance, deceit and nonsense you peddle! With so many examples it is impossible to find the time to debunk them all. Examples are littered over three threads.

“Are you honestly suggesting that Iran is a threat in the world today?

I would suggest like a lot of people, the majority of people in fact, that he is.

“It has no nuclear weapons and to all accounts, even if it goes ahead, won't for probably a decade“.

So this makes things alright than? I dispute this timeline anyhow.

“Yes, there is hatred of Israel and America but with good reason“.

Would you like to give the reasons? Or should this statement just be ACCEPTED as undisputed fact?

Has Israel ever attacked Iran? Has the US ever attacked Iran? Maybe the current crop of US citizens should feel guilty about the takeover by the Shah in 1953? If so I guess the new crop of German citizens should feel guilty over their non-participation due to the fact of not being born, in WWII and the crimes committed?

Why for example if 50’s history is so important should the Iranian government not be just as angered by the USSR therefore Russia today? In fact the only attack made on the current extreme Muslim Iran is by another Muslim state in the form of Iraq.

“You can hardly blame them. Of course you do, I know, but anyone of reason cannot“.

So far you have not shown any REASON for anyone to take your word with anything but a grain of salt on this issue.

“Iran's intentions at this point in time are irrelevant“.

No they are not. In the world every nations intentions are very RELEVENT!

“It has every right to produce nuclear power for peaceful means, which is what it says it wants. Fact is, it has the right“.

So inspections should not be a problem then, right?

“Dangerous nuclear powers like North Korea and China are not threatened in this way. Why Iran?

Who exactly is making threats? The only threats I can see being made are coming from Iran.

“I could understand your position if there were some consistency but there is not. You believe in pre-emption. I do not. You believe in war as a problem solving mechanism? I do not. You believe Iran is a threat. I do not. You believe the US is not a threat, despite all evidence to the contrary. I do. You believe Israel is not a threat despite all evidence to the contrary. I do“.

Who actually is making the threats again? Who on this board has ever said Iran should be attacked? Which nation has said Iran should be attacked? All that has ever been said is that all options are on the table. This is not unusual and could apply to countless nations.

You have made a straw man to defend your absurd postion. That absurd position is supporting a very cunning though insane leader spoiling for a war. Not one person or nation has advocated for Iran to be attacked. This is the greatest nonsense and lie peddled.

“But, beyond all of this we cannot agree because you believe in solving problems with bombs and bullets and I believe in solving them with diplomacy and peaceful protest“.

Geoff Pahoff never once, not once on this board advocated bombing Iran. This is a blatant misrepresentation and a disgrace. Typical of the one sided burden of proof that goes on here. This is the entire problem with this blog.

“That's the difference. You are a warmonger and I am a peace-maker. Oil and water“.

Supporting religious fanatics that treat many of their own people worse than their so called enemies is not going to keep your record intact. Find all the moral equivalence you wish however this statement is meaningless to all but your deluded self.

“The only good thing is that there are less warmongers in the world today than there was and with any luck we can breed them out“.

I hope you are including the Iranian President in this statement? A man that played a role in the removal of over 1000 moderate candidates from the latest election. A man that has not improved the lot of many Iranians daily lives, in spite of the oil so many here constantly speak off. A man that overseas a nation who’s punishments for dissenters can be seen at best as stone age. A man leading a nation with a largely under 30 year old population on a very possible collision course with nuclear destruction.

Peace-maker indeed!

Some points raised in this thread:

1.Translations/ domestic consumption, this may be needed for nice, western, white bred folk it however misses the point. The President of Iran is not nice, white bred nor western and neither is he speaking to that audience.

The President may be mad that does not make him a person without pride. He would mean exactly what he is saying. A person in that postion in a nation such as Iran does not mince words. To suggest otherwise is in fact a form of racism in itself.

As to changing the meaning of what he is saying to make nice white bred western peace protesters feel better about their poor choices. I would suggest that if this was tried in his presence, the person doing so would at best suffer a severe thrashing for disrespect. This man does NOT need and would not care to be the friend of western lefties. He also would not allow others to speak for him.

2. No government has advocated attacking Iran, neither has any person on this board. This is a figment of the lefts imagination to deflect from the fact some support a religious, hate filled fatalist lunatic. He likely scares the hell out of many of the long suffering in his own nation. The enemy of the lefts enemy may well indeed be their enemy.

Nobody really knows because 1000 of their candidates were banned from the elections.

3. Religious fatalist lunatics have little fear of death or others deaths. This would likely be a consideration in his likely attempts if the chance arises to attack Israel. The event of his nation being totally destroyed and thousands upon thousands of innocents being killed would be given scant regard.

It is in the interests of the UN to disarm this person at all costs. If Israel is attacked the world enters a new phase. It will indeed be a war that changes all wars, “a war of the worlds“. Much of what is being said here will count for very little.

Jay White

Lataan "Harry/David, your name-calling is a complete waste of time on me and only reflects on your total inability to make any argument or debate".

No, he is just a man with a opinion. Lucky enough to live in a free nation and smart enough to run a censorship free blog.

A mug like you would not get past first base in most nations you profess to be supporting. In fact you should thank people like Harry for helping to keep your life comfortable.

In fact you should thank people such as me, who's taxes help pay to keep a middle age hate monger at school doing a hate monger micky mouse course. I would prefer them spent on something of more value however thems the breaks.

Damian Lataan

Harry/David, your name-calling is a complete waste of time on me and only reflects on your total inability to make any argument or debate. As I say, you are a liar and deceiver. You represent no one except others like you. For your information, I have no hatred of the United States, only loathing, disgust and contempt for the liars and warmongers that lead the US government, the Israeli government, the Australian government, the British government and all of their supporters no matter where or who they are.

Harry/David: As I've said to you before, I would never actually engage with you in debate on the actual topic. That would be a complete waste of time. What we'd do tit for tat citing of "facts" to support our respective "cases"??? Oh please, spare me! Oh please, they play that game on Webdiary. I am not in the business of being sent on a fool's errand.

It's beyond me why people want to engage in those ritualized North Korean school girl debates. Throughout the relentless citing of Chomsky etc, no one ever actually changes their perspective. It is an utterly useless exercise.

The dialog I am engaged in with you now is similarly useless but the beauty of it is I don't have to run the fool's errand of the Google searches and the useless citing.

Instead I focus on the content free abuse as your mates term it.

I am not a Google slut being sent on fool's errands. That is their game. Ooooh wow.......bigtime research........ parrot case from Leftwing blog......oooh quote Chomsky.........oooooh engage in content rich debate. Pig's arse. It as as content free as the abusive term "cunt".

To quote Chomsky is tantamount to saying the word cunt ten times. It has the same impact and meaning. In other words none. Chomsky quotes are just as "content free" as four letter words.

If you want to play the Webdiary game, go back to Webdiary. I'd rather die than actually engage with you on the facts of any given topic.

Your loathing, contempt and disgust is returned in kind.

The only thing that makes me curious about you is how on earth you've managed to fall out with Webdiary given they are your soul mates and essentially are at one with your leftern philosophy.

How could you turn on such people and call them awful things like "proven liar" when you agree with everything they say?

That part damns you as the weirdest of them all. You are the grand pooh bar wizard of wierdness.

Justin Obodie

Will, just had a peak of the Iran thread (on WD) you mentioned. I feel that your post regarding constructive solutions was good stuff. Sad that no one was listening, maybe they didn't want to. Much harder to work out sensible solutions than just having a rave. Anyway mate I appreciate what you were trying to do and thought you offered an excellent starting point.

Anyway mate, looks like Harry's Cathartic Cafe de Digital once again provides some relief for disaffected Webdiarists to blow off a bit of steam, hey Geoff. Maybe we should nominate Harry for the Noble Peace Prize for kindest to frusted bloggers and stray cats, named Lefty.

Harry: I don't censor and liberty is a strong weapon against cowardice, lies and deceit.

I liken my blog to something like the General Assembly of the United Nations could have been if it had worked.

Lataan/Damian is a product of bad water policy in SA.

Will Howard

I was just thinking about those segments of the "Left" that hate Israel and the US - far beyond any sane, reasonable, and rational criticism of both countries. Do they hate the US because of Israel, or do they hate Israel because of the US?

Here's a thought experiment: would the same vilification of Israel on the "left" be happening if Israel were allied with, say, France? And recall that this was exactly the situation through the June 1967 War, which Israel fought and won mainly with French warplanes.

Harry: It is always more about the US than anything. The US is at the core of all that they profess to hate.

The same people wanted the US to surrender in the Cold War.

None of it is new.

The most common defense is that it is only a disagreement with Bush. It is the same as those who protest some of their best friends are Jews or Blacks right after delivering a diatribe of hatred against such people.

It is MUCH deeper than Bush. Bush is just the current manifestation of their hatred. It has always been there and always will be.

If you're an American in Australia you must know how it works by now. Fortunately not al Aussies are like that but there is an element of what I call the Arts Left community or the Australian Nostalgic Left who have a particularly strong hatred of the US.

The more they protest that it is just Bush, the more they will rail against American culture and all sorts of other unimaginable evils that are all somehow bizarrely associated with the United States.

It actually has little to do with Bush at all. I've been hearing it all my life.

Justin Obodie

Hey Kath, maybe my ex and your ex could run into (over, through, up) each other one day. Now I'd like to see that.

On seconds thoughts, maybe not.

Damian Lataan

Harry/David, you reckon: “The world excluding the governments of the 300 million strong USA, and the 500 million strong EU. Yeah other than that, everyone can see through it all.” You’re right; I am excluding the GOVERNMENTS of the US and EU. But not, of course, the 300 and 500 million respectively of the peoples of the US and EU, the vast majority of whom no longer support their respective governments on matters relating to Middle East policy.

I would also point out to readers that you have joined the ranks of the deceivers and liars here by stating that the left ‘hates Jews’. Like so many right-wing Zionists and right-wing Zionist supporters, you attempt to imply that those of us on the Left that are anti right-wing Zionist hate Jews generally and are, therefore, anti-Semitic. This is a deliberate lie and deceit which exposes you for what you really are. The old ruse of jumping up and down and frothing at the mouth as Pahoff does shouting “anti-Semite, anti-Semite!” just doesn’t work anymore. It’s been overdone. As I said, the world (even the American and European peoples) can see through it all.

Harry/David: Lataan/Damian, you are a bigot. You are a piss-ant cretin whose hatred of the United States distorts your view of the world to such an extent as to render it meaningless. You are the blind following the blind.

Just as you supported unilateral disarmament in the 80s you now also support bankrupt policies based more on hatred rather than any logical analysis.

Shouldn't you be posting on Webdiary anyway? That's where you'd find your soul mates.

What current figure in world politics do you have a high opinion of? Name ONE please, you pig ignorant fool.

That South Australian water has produced you, Tonkin and Mezza Schlepa. More reason to flush out the Murray. Years of contamination has produced mutants far more scary than any Hollywood could conjure up.


Geoff Pahoff


Will Howard

Since we have two blogs that seem to spill over onto one another, in the interests of openness and transparency, here is what I posted on the Webdiary "Should Iran be attacked?" thread:

"We now have three threads that have all devolved into the usual anti-Israel/pro-Israel unwinnable pissing contest. Not one person, save Ian MacDougall, has engaged in any way with my (perhaps flawed) attempt to propose a constructive solution to the joint problems of nuclear weapons proliferation and belligerency in the MidEast.

My position on MidEast politics is well-known - go back and look through my past postings.

I'm sorry, but I can't be involved in the kind of lurid vilification and demonisation of Israel that's going on on these pages. Roslyn Ross' essay on Israel has the word "truth" in its title, yet contains very little. I wouldn't know where to begin. Almost none of the essay would stand up to even the most cursory factual scrutiny. No historian with the slightest shred of intellectual honesty, whether supportive or critical of Israel, would remotely recognise any "history" in that screed. The bilious hatred and bigotry exemplified by that rant is so extreme that it's almost pornographic. I can't have my name associated with such a thread, so I will answer here.

Hamish and other members of Webdiary management: in this latest set of threads, Webdiary has moved dangerously close to becoming just another hate site. I respect your rights to decide on the content published and posted on Webdiary, but I would suggest you have a long hard think about your vision for this project."

I've reached my limit too. Geoff: believe me, I know how you feel. I feel exactly the same way about the bigotry and anti-Semitism that segments of the "Left" have taken on in their hatred of America and Israel. I think they have just stopped thinking, if they ever did.

Think of your own health, Geoff. It's not good for you, mentally and physically, to get too worked up about this type of rhetoric. I know how hard it is not to get sucked in and upset by that stuff, and I've fallen for it myself. But how about we both try not to let it get to us? Deal?

Harry: As any one who has read this blog for a while will know, I am not one normally to urge moderation. Generally I promote the "take no prisioners" approach.

I do learn in some fashion though that it is not good for me to read hate material. I see that so often on Webdiary. Hatred of John Howard, hatred of the United States and all the rest of it. All it does is make me hate back.

To be a bit more sane about it, I just had to stop reading. It was the only way I could handle it.

You have to remember that the people of this ilk were the same kind who promoted unilateral disarmament at the height of the Cold War.

Whether it is a heritage born out of the Vietnam war issue or what I do not know. All I know is that the central hatred is of the United States and it is visceral.

It is a hatred so profound that it cannot be reasoned with.

When you mix it up with Israel, the result is inevitable.

As for appeals to the Webdiary Management, you are wasting your time Will. I know you have good intentions but you have to understand they have the sensibility of extreme left Greens and all that entails.

They are on a MISSION. It is like trying to convince a fundamentalist Christian that evolution makes sense.

You can't do it.

They have their own form of religion that revolves around hatred rather than love.

Look at the board of Webdiary Pty Ltd. Look at their documented views which many would regard as extreme.

They demonize the mainstream and promote a vile hatred.

Kathy Farrelly

Or.. maybe Justin , Geoff was RUN over by my ex husband!!

Jay White

Geoff, Geoff, Geoff just calm down for a minute and hear me out.

I have read the threads in question, and it is obvious the latest piece is a diversion tactic. This person has also BACKED a religious madman likely soon nuclear armed. The truth is becoming all to real for more than just a few "lefties".

Hence rather than have to admit as going as far as backing a anti-democratic hate filled (on his own people aswell) warmonger just because it is against Israel and the US. It is time to find another ACCEPTABLE reason. This article I am afraid is the poor example of a REASON.

I respect your writing and think you could easily debunk a very basic crap article point by point. Frankly somebody at least should show it for exactly what it is!

In a world without Israel I would not be surprised to read how the Jews run our banks, media, armed forces etc all for their own collective selfish group ends. In fact just let me take back the last part, because that is already what we read often, with Israel in exsistence.

I swear the older I get, the more crazy the world seems to become! Uncork the genie from the bottle and it is impossible to put back in!

Harry: That is right. Isn't it interesting to see how things turned. If you said years ago that Jews run and control everything, you'd be run out of town by the left. Now it is they who are saying it and running out the right for saying it is not true.

When I was in New York at Easter I reflected quite a lot on the Jewish contribution to America. I not only reflected on what Jews have done for America but also what it says about America. In my view it says something very good.

Of course I'd be run out of town for saying that nowadays with the left and their attitude to all things Jewish.

I have some sympathy for Antony Lowentsein's position. He's a Jew himself but seems to promote a left wing line that wins him no friends with the Jewish lobby. Sometimes though I think Ant goes too far but I suppose that is par for the course since he is way to the left of me. I urge people to check out his blog.

I'd like to see a balance and some honesty on this topic. I am not a fan of the notion that everything Israel does is right. On the other hand I firmly believe it has a right to exist.

I've heard it said that it must become a secular state. Why should it? The United Kingdom is NOT a secular state. The PM in Britain appoints Anglican bishops for Godsake. The head of state, QEII also has a religious role.

There are religious states all around the world. It is unrealistic in the extreme to either wipe out Israel or turn it into a secular state.

I hardly find it surprising that they are so damn defensive.

I also find it hardly surprising that the United States has been a friend of Israel since the beginning.

It is not sinister, it is a perfectly natural alignment. It would be bizarre if it were any other way.

Spend an Easter Sunday in New York's Central Park and you can't imagine anything else.

The left always accuses the right of making things black and white and overly simple.

They do this all the time with Israel.

Of course so many people will say it is not anti-semitism and in some cases I believe them.

In others I don't.

Hate is hate.

The people who hate Jews, Israel and the United States need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Justin Obodie

Geoff says:

“And what happens? That frigging fat old pig-faced bovine shaped bucket of spittle, snot and bile has the audacity to accuse me of abuse. Fucking ugly piece of goat-rooting horseshit. Who does she think she is?”

I take it mate you’ve had a bad day. You must have run into my ex-wife. Best have snort or two and forget about it.

Harry: Especially if you don't play rugby.

Damian Lataan

The idea Dylan, is not so much to debate, but merely to point out that these people are indeed liars, deceivers and warmongers. I do this at every available opportunity regardless of the polemics of the proprietor of the blog.

Harry: So I assume you are talking about me? You do all this despite my polemics? Damn. You've taken the wind out of my sails! I was kinda hoping my polemics gave you that bit of extra zing in the morning. Where do you get your zing from, if not from me and my polemics?

Geoff Pahoff


I agree with you. There has to be a limit. And I'm just about at mine. How many times do I have to go over the same stuff. Not just me. C Parsons. Will, of course.

And what happens? That frigging fat old pig-faced bovine shaped bucket of spittle, snot and bile has the audacity to accuse me of abuse.

Fucking ugly piece of goat-rooting horseshit. Who does she think she is? The gall.

Harry: So you must have made a "content-free" comment. I love it when they accuse someone of content-free commentary. Has this concept ever been known before any other place in the world? Content free? It almost sounds like anti-matter.

On the old Webdiary someone once said that the Iraq war was all about the anti-gravity people. I'll bet those anti-gravity people are really into content-free abuse.

Geoff Pahoff

Actually Michael, I did at firsr consider indefensible but changed it to undefendable because I thought it had more impact.

Is this dopey cow an "academic"? Ahah. That would explain it all. As George Orwell would have said. No ordinary person could be so stupid and pig ignorant.

Harry: You can't get anywhere in Arts unless you publish all that crap. Want a high distinction in an Arts subject? Rail against America!! I did it in the late eighties at the University of Queensland and it worked a treat! I just acted like the Strategic Defense Initiative scared the bejesus out of me and I went straight to the top of the class.

Dylan Kissane

Gee, Lataan: for someone who refuses to debate liars, deceivers and warmongers you sure do post a lot of comments here. Don't you know that Harry's blog is warmonger central? :-)

Harry: Yep that pretty well sums it up. I am a mad as a cut snake extreme right winger who mongers wars, lies and all the rest of it. He seems to have eased off the Nazi charge but I assume that still applies. Then again he includes France as being part of the vast conspiracy of all the countries who are out to get dear little, cute-as-a-button, defenceless Iran.

Michael Park

"Have you ever noticed how shrill and angry these people get when defending the undefendable?"

Ahhh, shouldn't that be the "indefensible"? If we're aguing against "academics", we should at least teach them good English!

Harry: It's time to return America to normalcy and forget the nuke-lee-are problem.

Harry Heidelberg

It was destroyed the day Margo adopted out her baby to left wing extremists.

Damian Lataan

What you hear Pahoff, is yourself churning over the same old lies and pro-Zionist garbage in your futile effort to convince the world that Israel is entitled to the lands that belong to the Palestinians. Whittling down the opposition to that aim by trying to get America to neutralise Iran for Israel by lies and deceit is not acceptable to the rest of the world. The world can all see through it.

Harry> The world excluding the governments of the 300 million strong USA, and the 500 million strong EU. Yeah other than that, everyone can see through it all.

Craig Warton


I think "that place" has degenerated from slighly eccentric to down right seedy. Damian, despite what I consider his failings at least stated that israel should revert to the 1948 boundaries. This mob of ratbags find even that untenable. Apparently the whole problem is that it even exists. So that excuses everything. You cant even rationally discuss a point because it comes back to that starting point. Barking mad!
Oh and apparently we need a world government too!
I would suggest doing what jay has decided to do - dont play!

Harry The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Geoff Pahoff

You're quite right Jay. I think it must have something to do with the full moon.

Have you ever noticed how shrill and angry these people get when defending the undefendable? The madder the argument, the angrier the proponents get. You may have noticed how the argument has spilled over on to one or two other threads. And every lunatic with his dick in his hand has shown up for the party. We 've got the lot. A discussion about Iran and the bomb and what do they do? Drag out some tired ignorant old piece of works to rabbit on about Deir Yassin (which of course is a big and disputed issue in itself) what 60 years ago. Not to mention all the hoary old lies. Only arabs lived in Palestine apparently. Palestine was only an arab "country" No Jews. All the jews came from europe.!!! Therefore Israel is a colonial state.

Fucking rude offensive ignoramus. Meanwhile the Iranians are marching down their main streets with missiles and goosestepping troops right now! So what does the dopey cow do . Tell the absolute foulest lies possible about where Israel's holocaust memorial is!!! They expect me to debate this odious excuse as if she was a normal rational human being. Bullshit.

Harry: Yes it is indeed offensive. What are the Jews supposed to do?

I missed Wall's latest piece of crap about photos etc. I remember a whine about it on another thread. Whether I can be bothered finding and replying to it I don't know. Certainly not now. I've had a gutful of that mob for today at least.

This latest piece of raving horseshit they've rolled out may be the final straw for me. Christ I'm glad you don't have to debate these people face to face. Can you imagine being in the same room as her?

Harry: I don't think I have the energy to check the thread you are all talking about. I can sort of imagine what it is like anyway without reading it.

Geoff Pahoff

I hear that horrible whining noice again. Like scratching a blackboard with your finger nails.

Yek. For chrissake, Harry clean that bloody mike or something.

Damian Lataan

I note that Will Howard is attempting yet again to deceive Webdiarists with the assertion that “…Israeli intelligence and military analysts are actually far more cautious and sober about military action against Iran's nuclear facilities than are their American counterparts.” (At least he concedes that the Israelis do have their counterparts in the US.) The Israelis are nonetheless – and this is where Will Howard attempts to deceive by virtue of neglecting to mention this – just as adamant that Iran should be neutralised. And, of course, they are quite happy to let their American allies do this for them; that way the comeback on the Israeli’s from their Arab neighbours is minimised. The right-wing Zionists can then always point the finger of blame toward America.

Webdiarists should aware that US policy toward Iran is driven exclusively and solely by Israel’s desire to neutralise Irans ability to intervene in Israel’s long-term ambitions of creating a Greater Israel utilising the lands of the West Bank and Gaza that belong to the Palestinians.

Webdiarists should also be aware that noted Israeli apologists and propagandists Will Howard and Geoff Pahoff, who form part of the ‘Israeli Lobby’ in Australia, are well known for their warmongering lies and deceit.

Harry: I'd request you don't refer to contributors to this blog by the term "Webdiarist". I consider that term to be one of extreme abuse. They are individuals not part of a gaggle or clique. Individuals should be addressed by their names or via conventional insults. Under no circumstances should they be referred to as "Webdiarists".

I am relaxed about you calling me a liar, deciever and a warmonger but please never call me a "Webdiarist". I am no such thing.

Jay White

By the way I mean BUY.

Jay White

Hey Geoff, if you answer the Bob Wall post can you ask if I can by the copyright to that paragraph?

Pure gold! I am still laughing!

This statement re-writes entire perceptions of reality in one swoop! The connotations are endless!

Jeebus and this guy is now translating Arabic!

Jay White

Bob Wall "Yet some people make assertions with a certainty that is belied by a wealth of material that is available. I also raised the matter of substantiation yet the best we have seen are some "PHOTOGRAPHS".


To the Court I ask you dismiss all charges against my client. How can this be murder, when we only have "photographs" of the dead man?

He is I tells you alive! This is not proof!

Jay White

Geoff the thread at the other place you are involved with is truly frightening. I really cannot express in words how shocked I am at reading some of the comments coming from what otherwise would be considered intelligent people.

When did things get to this point? The wilful ignorence of facts and the out and out, hardly hidden racism would not have been out of place coming from a old Irish Catholic priest forty years ago. Things truly have sunk to a level I have never witnessed before! We really could be at the beginning of a very grim chapter in history!

The leader of Iran is insane. This is obvious to even the most blind. This man could very well lead to the annilation of his entire nation. And he is not only being cheered on he is being supported. Totally unfucking believable.

We live in a golden age in this nation. Almost all aspects of life have improved in the last century. Still it appears not to be enough to quench the hatred. Will anything ever be enough for these people?

All hate in life begins as personal. I just wonder what it was that set many of these people of on their road. I find it deeply disturbing.

After blaming all problems on every person bar the leader of Iran, one guy even has the hide to say he does not want war as if somehow this exonarates his positon. Under the circumstances he may aswell proclaim he does not like cheesecake!

For it makes as much difference.

Harry Heidelberg

The most common charge from Damian is that his enemies are foul mouthed and liars. Poor old Hamish gets the additional tag of being a "proven liar".

In the joy of Savannah, Georgia I am finding it ever more challenging to muster rage.

I wonder how Damian is doing Mother's Day? I am wondering if he's walking around clutching a bunch of chrysanthemums with an angelic face?

All of us are deeper than our online personas and perhaps the chrysanthemum / angelic face thing is Damian's gig for today.

You never, never know unless you never never go.

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